In conversation with ... Andrew Hamilton

In this episode of Not Alone: Leaders in conversation, Rafael interviews chemist and university leader Andrew Hamilton, whose career moved from Exeter and Cambridge to UBC, a postdoc in Strasbourg, and faculty roles at Princeton, Pittsburgh, and Yale, before senior leadership as Yale provost, Oxford vice chancellor, and NYU president (2016–2023). Hamilton describes how setbacks and “sliding door” moments shaped his path, and why he maintained an organic chemistry lab during leadership roles for personal grounding and faculty credibility. 

Topics include:

• Chemistry of Art Teaching
• NYU Priorities Then Now
• Case for Global Campuses
• Trust in Universities
• Europe vs US Governance
• Leadership in Complexity
• Neutrality and Future Crises

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Transcript

Welcome And Andrew Hamilton’s Path

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Not Alone Leaders in Conversation, a bi-monthly podcast where we delve into the minds and experiences of academic leaders who are shaping the future of higher education. Your host is Raphael Brass, professor at Georgia Institute of Technology and editor of Elsevier's Not Alone newsletter. In each episode, he will explore the complex challenges, decisions, and opportunities facing academic institutions today.

SPEAKER_00 0:28

Some of the topics you can look forward to in this episode are NYU priorities then and now, the future of global campuses, trust crisis in academia, Europe versus US governance, leading complex universities, and the institutional neutrality debate.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Professor Andrew Hamilton has unique transcontinental institutional experience. He likes to say that the path to leadership is not always straight, and his background supports that statement. He got a degree from Exeter, England. From there he went to the University of British Columbia, Canada, then to Cambridge University, where he obtained his PhD. His postdoctoral experience was across the channel in France. His faculty at first faculty appointment was in Princeton, New Jersey, then to the University of Pittsburgh and Yale. He headed back to Oxford as Vice-Chancellor, the equivalent of president. After Oxford, back to the United States, where he was president of New York University from 2016 to 2023. Frankly, I'm tired just talking about it. He certainly has moved. Welcome, Andrew, to not alone leaders in conversation.

SPEAKER_03 1:53

Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here and listening to you uh describe my career. It sounds like I have a hard time holding down a job, but certainly it has involved lots of uh trips across the Atlantic.

SPEAKER_02 2:06

Well, maybe I was I was gonna ask you that question. Well,

Why Leaders Keep A Lab

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Andrew, let's talk uh about career. You're a chemist and you are passionate about chemistry. I I understand that you have continued your research and have maintained a laboratory through all your presidencies, uh, and I gather you're still involved. What is it about research?

SPEAKER_03 2:30

It's less now in these later years, but certainly while I was uh provost of Yale and then vice-chancellor of Oxford and president of NYU, I kept a lab in the chemistry department. It was very important for me. You know this, Raphael, that we are scientists. I began my career. I had no intention, absolutely no intention, of going into university leadership or university administration. I had I had been chair of my department at the University of Pittsburgh and then became chair of the chemistry department at Yale. But I found myself just being offered an opportunity to take on a higher level role. In that case, it was the deputy provost at Yale for responsibility for science and technology. I had no in, I had no plans to to follow that route, but I I took the step and decided and found that I actually it was something I enjoyed. It was something I got professional and personal satisfaction from. But in all of that time, I never left my roots in science. And I think we scientists know we we have gone into our careers because of our love of science. In my case, it was organic chemistry. And I kept my lab. It was during my time in leadership positions, it was very important to maintain my sanity, quite frankly, to be able in the in the sometimes surreal world of university leadership, to be able to go to the lab, to talk to my students, to hear about the experiments that had worked or those that had not worked, to be talking about the future of their research. That was a very important part of maintaining my sanity. And I will say as well that again, in leadership positions, particularly with large, you know, outstanding and often demanding faculty colleagues. And I'm thinking of Yale, I'm thinking of Oxford, I'm thinking of NYU. It actually continuing my research, continuing to publish and get research funding from federal agencies was an important part of maintaining my street cred with the faculty that I'm one of you. You know, I'm not on that dark side of university leadership. Yes, I'm in those roles, but I am still a scholar at heart, and I show that by continuing my research. So it played many roles for me in the early stage in my career, but of course, it was also very important as I took on those additional responsibilities.

SPEAKER_02 5:30

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I I I also kept my laboratory uh uh and group working throughout all my career up to this point, although it's winding now down now. And as you said, two main reasons. One is maintained credibility, and two is the satisfaction of the students, no question about it.

SPEAKER_03 5:51

Well, I've

Teaching Chemistry Through Art

SPEAKER_03 5:52

had I've had in I've had enormous fun since stepping, I stepped down from the presidency of NYU two and a half years ago, uh, thankfully missing this most recent crisis and challenges that uh uh higher education is facing. But I stepped down and I've I've gone back, yes, to research, but also to teaching. And I'm I'm teaching a course on the chemistry of art. I wanted to teach a subject that crossed the humanities and the sciences, and we look at the way colour the way color is created in the natural world, in bird plumage, in plants, in in uh uh different uh animal colorings. Uh, and we also look at the way in which pigments, from cave paintings all the way to modern art, the way that pigments have evolved, and the role of chemistry and the degree to which chemistry influenced art, and the degree to which art influenced chemistry. And of course, those who know the history of the chemical industry know well that in fact it was the companies that first began to produce synthetic dyes in the 19th century. They, with the magnificent work of a scientist called Paul Ehrlich, realized that dyes had very specific interactions with human cells. And many of those dyes became the first pharmaceuticals, they became the first drugs that people took in the late 19th and early 20th century. And so from dyes and from pigments came the pharmaceutical industry with all of the impact that has on our lives today, and and quite frankly, the length of the lives that we live today.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

That's incredible. I I frankly I would love to take the course. Maybe you can put it online. You you are you you alluded to the changes in the world of academia, uh, and uh indeed uh we we are in a completely different situation now than we were, even when you started as president of NYU. Back in 2016, when you started as president of NYU, you you have certain goals that include affordability, sustainability, uh science, diversity, raising the profile of NYU. If you were starting now, if today, how would that inaugural speech look?

NYU Priorities Then And Now

SPEAKER_03 8:36

I you know, like many incoming university presidents, at my inauguration, I laid out Raphael's referring to my inauguration speech, and I laid out five or six key priorities for me, and and you're right. Uh I I listed them affordability, uh science, global, uh, raising the profile of NYU, diversity, strengthening the scholarship at the university in every uh aspect of that work. How would I change today? I think probably I'd have science and the strengthening and the defense of science as a higher priority. I would have global NYU as a university that is very much committed to international education. I'm sure we'll come on to that a little later. And and uh I think it's never more important than now to be strengthening and promoting the importance of international exposure, whether it's to international students coming to the home campus, or whether it is students taking themselves for an extended period to uh uh an international campus where they can practice a different language, experience a different culture, connect to people with very different backgrounds. And so I think I probably, given the circumstances of the current day, I probably raise the priority of those two aspects, but I'm not sure I change much else.

SPEAKER_02 10:12

Let's

The Case For Global Campuses

SPEAKER_02 10:13

talk a little bit about the international presence, which I think NYU is a leader on. You have campuses in Abu Dhabi, in Chianghai, if I recall correctly, also in many of the different locations, and a presence in many other places. We we are at a moment where that type of international engagement is uh is effectively being discouraged in certainly with China, if not forced to close. Sadly. Uh from my perspective. We're also in a situation where many international students uh are reluctant to come to the United States. Um, yesterday I had uh uh an experience with a visitor thinking of coming here and then all of a sudden his family uh based on rush podcasts that they have heard got afraid. I'm not sure they want to come. Yeah, can can you expand on that? What what are what do you think is the long-term impact of that?

SPEAKER_03 11:27

Uh no, uh the long term. Uh let me just take a step back, Raphael, and and you know, before NYU, as you said in your introduction, I had the privilege of being the vice-chancellor of Oxford University. Oxford was founded in the 11th century. You know, Oxford is a university, we can look at Bologna, we can look at Paris, we can look at others throughout Europe, that has been in existence for nearly a thousand years. And that that longevity of an institution, you know, of course, an institution that's changed utterly over those thousand years, that is constantly reinventing itself, but uh uh an institution that nonetheless bears close resemblance today to what it was 900, 800, 700 years ago. And a key part of that longevity and that stability has been uh an openness, uh uh a desire to engage with the wider world. And I always liked in my Oxford speeches to point out that Oxford took its first international student in 1190, and we even know who it was. His name was Emo of Friesland, and it's a reminder that we have scholarship that universities have been playing a role, playing a role on the international stage for a very, very long time. And I, you know, I might even take that one step further, if I may. You know, that we we've heard a lot of criticism about international collaboration and connections in these past years. But again, let's look at the historical perspective and and the American higher education system, indeed, the earliest university, and I'm thinking of Harvard University, founded nearly 400 years ago by John Harvard, who was a Cambridge graduate. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, William and Mary, the oldest universities were very much founded with a strong influence from Oxford and Cambridge. And of course, we know that in the 19th century, with the influence of Humboldt and the German research-intensive university, essentially determining the way in which Johns Hopkins and other universities around the country evolved with their strong emphasis on research. We see in the strength of American higher education a very important role that has been played throughout history by universities internationally. And so, you know, we would not have the world-beating US higher education system that we have if it had not been for collaborations and interactions and partnerships and student and faculty exchanges that took place in the early years of the United States. And so for me, you know, I look to the long term. You you ask what is the long-term view? And you know, Oxford will still be here a thousand years from now. You know, I'm not sure what else will be, but Oxford will be. And I I think universities must and should always look to the long term. And so I'm I'm a huge, I'm a huge uh supporter of Booster 4 international engagement, whether it's international students coming to our universities in the US, the UK, and Europe, whether it's uh our students going and traveling internationally and being exposed to other cultures. I, you know, what whenever people raised questions about NYU's campus in Shanghai, in Abu Dhabi, I should point out we have a mini campus in Tel Aviv. You know, NYU is a university that has a presence in the Arab world and in Israel and is very proud uh of that presence and the opportunity it gives for students to go and travel and engage with the Arab world and with contemporary Israel and to understand and dig deeper into the complexities of the historical and the political circumstances. But for me, when anyone raised those questions about, you know, let's say our campus in Shanghai, I would respond surely you're not suggesting that in the United States we should have fewer people who speak Mandarin, fewer people who are familiar with Chinese culture and history and contemporary politics, because one of the roles that those campuses are playing are engaging young people, students with that different country, that different culture, that different language. And so again, you know, are there challenges? Yes, of course. Should we always be very attentive to the risks? Yes, of course. Uh and certainly uh NYU in my time as president, obviously I can't speak to the current moment, but I in my time as president, we paid great attention to ensuring that that we followed all of the appropriate uh safeguards in both student travel but also in areas of intellectual property protection and things of that kind. But I I think that overall the role that universities play in the international world in encouraging understanding and familiarity with cultures and languages is critically important. And I hope it will continue for many centuries to come.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

Very well said, very well said. You

Trust In Universities And Public Scrutiny

SPEAKER_02 18:04

and I were uh last September in Academic Leaders Summit that Elsevier put up in London. I was honestly somewhat surprised uh that the issue of trust in academia, which is so prevalent in the United States and as Carolisa was sort of spreading throughout the world. You could see it, and they they the our colleagues from any other countries uh said so. What is happening? Uh you know, we've been accused of uh intolerant liberal orthodoxy, we've been accused of elitism, we've been accused of everything, and it is a narrative that I'm not sure we can fully control. So, how how do we deal with it?

SPEAKER_03 19:03

Yeah, I'm I'm not sure there's very much we can control in all honesty. So, you know, it's and certainly in the wider world. I will point out you of course you are right, Rafael. Uh, all of the of the surveys point to uh a very troubling decline in trust in the direction that higher education in the US but as you rightly point out, we're seeing that in other parts of the world as well. And I think these are things we should take very seriously. We should work hard to tell our stories, to reinforce why universities matter, why we have mattered over the past centuries, why we do matter currently, and why why we will matter in the future. I suppose I would just say we need to be careful not to over-react, even in these very difficult times. There is declining trust in all institutions, you know, in the political world, in journalism, in the church. There is declining trust across the board in society. I always find it slightly ironic, let me use that word, that you know we will hear criticism of universities often coming from the mouths of politicians and prominent public figures. But the moment their children reach 18 years old, they will be the first in line to want to ensure that their child gets into the best university possible. And certainly, you know, if one just takes a little step back. I I know there are declining admissions, but there are not declining admissions into America's leading universities. If you if you take the top 50, the top 100 universities in America, many of them are seeing record application numbers. And no, that is saying something as well. That there is still a real feeling that uh college education matters. It matters for a successful life, it matters for a life where the mind has the has an opportunity to be engaged in one subject very deeply, but in a wide range of subjects, as well as that that life of a student, uh, and the opportunity to to uh to learn about culture, to learn about language, to learn about the world through through travel. No, I think to some extent, that decline in trust, I view it as coming from a different place. I believe you can hear I am a great booster for univers. I think universities have never been more important than they are today. I think the number of people, the percentage of the population who go to university, whether it's in the US, in the UK, or in most other parts of Europe, has never been higher. The importance of a college education and increasingly, even postgraduate qualifications, their importance in leading a prosperous life has never been greater. And as a result, inevitably and rightly, we come under greater scrutiny. We come under greater questioning because, again, we have never been more important in the wider society. When I went to college in the UK, I think something like 6% of the population went to higher education. Now it's closer to 40, 45, 50% of the population. So inevitably, there's going to be a greater focus on colleges, universities, and we need to respond to that. We need to be sure to take it seriously. We need to be sure that we remind the world constantly why we matter, why the research that we do is of such critical importance in the wider economy, in this the discovery of new technologies, why culture would be so much the lesser without the contributions that universities make in the humanities and the arts. And why wider society without those academic economists and sociologists who help us understand the nature of urban living in the 21st century and the other aspects of complex society? We are contributing a great deal, and we need to work harder to make sure that we get that message out.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

The Not Alone Podcast is a collaboration between Elsevier and Professor Raphael Brass. We bring unfiltered perspectives on global issues by research and academic leaders. Experts from MIT, Harvard, UCLA, and beyond bring their conviction and compassion to a wide range of topics. Follow our channel for fresh content. And now back to the show.

Governance Differences Across Systems

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Andrew, I want to ask you, uh, because I think it's relevant to the global conversation of trust. I there's an inherent difference uh between academia in, let's say, continental Europe and certainly Asia and the US. Very few people that I know have the experiences you've had. You've seen it from the inside, you've led them. Let me take a rest here. In preparing and getting involved in the not alone uh leaders in focus, which is a written newsletter as well as this podcast, I have found that many of the leaders in Europe and somewhat in Asia are more cautious about getting engaged in something that is global than the American leaders. And I have my theories for that, but I was wondering: can you put that in the context of the difference between the two systems, let's say continental Europe and the American system?

SPEAKER_03 25:41

You know, obviously, of course, Raphael, my my principal experience in Europe, and I still like to think of the United Kingdom as Europe, my print was in the UK. And of course, you know, the UK and its higher education system is somewhat different on many levels from what one finds in France or Italy or Germany. Um certainly the UK. We have seen a number of universities. When you say the international, the global, a number of universities have established campuses uh around the world. Oxford was not one of them, but certainly Nottingham and Strathclyde and and other universities have have worked on international campuses. I think you're right. There are fewer in in continental Europe. I again I it's hard to point, you know, there are very different governance structures as well. You know that the nature of decision making uh can be quite profoundly different. I I have to confess, and I'll I'll slightly answer a different question now. When I went to Oxford, you know, the the greatest um challenge, perhaps let me put it like that, was encountering the governance structure that Oxford has. And ancient universities have had a very long time to put in place governance structures that are quite different, quite distinctive. And, you know, again, I I could spend hours talking about the governance structure of Oxford, but I'll give you a very short synopsis, which is that there is a board. Uh, it's a board that has external members, but the majority are internal members, faculty, staff, students. It's a board that's chaired by the vice-chancellor, which is an unusual. So one becomes almost uh an executive uh a CEO and a chairman at the same time. But there is a mechanism in Oxford for the faculty and the senior staff who number about 5,000, there is a mechanism for them to overturn the decisions of the board. That group is called congregation. And if enough members of congregation come forward to challenge a decision that the board has taken, then they can initiate a debate and a vote and overturn the decision of the board. So it truly is a structure that has constitutionalized faculty governance, faculty involvement in decision making to the extent that a board decision can be overturned by a majority of faculty and senior staff. And again, it it touches upon your question because issues around the complexity then and the challenges of opening campuses in different countries with inevitably the distraction that then brings to the home campus, the possible diversion of funds away from the home campus, the political complexity that being in another country with its political issues, that all then opens up the opportunity for those who wish to prevent such a step from being taken, to indeed bring forward the machinery of decision making to prevent it or to block it or to vote against it. And I think we have seen that in a number of cases in continental Europe where universities have been planning to engage globally, where the faculty and the mechanisms of faculty governance have allowed uh uh the decision to be overturned.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

Yeah. I I would have given the same answer. I think that in fact that is the big difference. Uh, that the governance structure and the role of the leader within that governance structure is very different. The role of the leader vis-a-vis external and internal constituents is very different. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:20

Yeah, I'm I'm I'm a well, you you know, you talk about phrases that I've brought forward. Most of them I've I've ploined from somewhere else. And one of my favorite t-shirts was an NPR t-shirt, which was all about diplomacy, but I I would say higher education leadership rather than diplomacy. And higher education leadership is the art of letting other people have your way. And it it is truly that case that in higher education leadership, you need to have a clear idea of where you want to get to, but then you need to bring and these governance structures in certainly in European universities, in Oxford specifically, uh, but I would say increasingly in the US as well, you need to bring people along and ideally to have them think it was their idea. You know, that letting other people have your way so that they take on the goal of getting to a particular point and take ownership for it and make it happen.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

Yes, absolutely. You've

What Good University Leadership Requires

SPEAKER_02 31:29

described it, but that that leads me to the to the question of you have defined leadership in a particular way, which I think is right, the academic leadership. But when you go look around and you look at your colleagues and you look at leadership in other roles, what is good leadership to you? You have been an extraordinary leader in very different situations. Can you point to a few traits, characteristics uh that you admire in leaders?

SPEAKER_03 32:01

It's no universities, and again, I think in in the current debate, in the current uh world that we're living in, you know, we we often understate, we underemphasize just how complex universities are. And you know, I uh when I went from Yale, I went to Oxford, and Oxford was twice the size of Yale. And then I went from Oxford to NYU. NYU is twice the size of Oxford. NYU is enormous. We have 65,000 students, we have 20,000 faculty and staff, we're the size of a city, you know, a medium-sized city, and and inevitably. No, there is not a single voice. We you know, often people talk about universities having a political position, universities taking a position. Universities, I my my predecessor, John Sexton, always used to love the word cacophony. You know, we are a cacophony of voices, a myriad of voices of very different perspectives and flavors. Some of them are louder than others, and that becomes its own challenge and and uh issues that we have to face. But universities are very, very complex. And and I often, you know, there is no simple answer to your question, in my opinion, Rafael. I think, you know, we have to be able, we leaders, uh, we have to be able to hold completely contradictory views in our head at the same time. We we you know, universities are very traditional. We wear clothing at graduation that harks back to medieval uh uh Bologna. You know, yet we are incredibly modern and innovative uh in in both the work, the research, the teaching, even the entrepreneurship that we do. You know, you think of universities. We we are global in a university like NYU, but we are utterly committed to New York City and our partnership with universities in the state and the city, our our engagement with the communities around us, our role in the wider. So we are both global and local. And and I do think it's important that you know leaders, and I tried to follow this in my time as as provost vice-chancellor and president, yes, we need to have clear vision. Yes, we need to have principles and to use them as our guidepost. But we also need to ensure, I always used to say to my colleagues, we also need to ensure that the university gets to the end of next week. There is a pragmatism that we have to face. We have to be careful to not mire the university in a crisis, a financial crisis, a constitutional crisis, uh, and and you know, a political crisis. And so there has to be that pragmatism, in my opinion, as well. And so, again, holding two contradictory views in one's head at the same time is a skill that I would encourage all aspiring university leaders to practice.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

That's a difficult one, but you're right. Along those

Institutional Neutrality And Future Crises

SPEAKER_02 35:35

lines, one one quick last question, maybe uh and related to it contradictory views and the concept of academic neutrality, which has been uh uh increasingly been adopted uh in the United States, uh maybe conveniently so. One side says the institution has to make it to next week. We have to be pragmatic about it. Uh, we should only deal with issues that are of direct relevance to our business. On the other side is the argument there are a series of principles and values that the institution and the leaders hold. And hence to not speak to them is somewhat of an abdication of leadership. Uh when you establish a policy, the danger is you have to live by it. How how how you see this situation?

SPEAKER_03 36:37

Obviously, what what what I'm about to I'm I am not speaking for NYU anymore. Uh I uh I fully understand why universities with different histories, different cultures, different views of the world have taken that decision around a commitment to institutional neutrality, as you rightly say a number of them have. I I worry. You know, I I fortunately I don't have to make that decision now. I'm not uh no longer president. I worry a little, I worry a little bit about absolutist positions, because you know, your one of your first questions to me was about surprises. You know, we never know what is around the corner. We never know what issue will the university will face. And so I would be cautious in if I were a president, I would be cautious about taking too absolutist a position because boy, something we had completely unexpected, uh had not expected, uh, will present itself to us. I worry, for example, now I I I'll throw out an example, which may get me into trouble, but you know, the world of of public health, vaccine policy, epidemiology, these are start, these are areas that are starting to drift into the political realm. Are we saying that we would not take a uh an institutional and certainly a public health school position on those kind of areas, even though there are many who might view taking that position being taking a political position, because others uh uh of a different political perspective have a different view on vaccine policy or uh issues around public health. And again, you know, that's not to debate those issues today, but it's more just to respond to my what would be my hesitation of taking too absolutist a view, because something is coming around the corner that we will need, and indeed our communic our community will very much want and be expecting a reaction or a position from the university.

SPEAKER_02 39:17

I I'm amazed, Andrew, when uh after these 45 minutes, how much we agree on so many things. I haven't found it is truly unbelievable. I fully agree with your last statement. Um a policy of that nature is almost guaranteed to be violated, the way I see it ultimately by necessity. And it reminds me.

SPEAKER_03 39:40

One of the things that worries me about the current moment is how quickly we forget the times we've lived through. You know, we're we're all forgetting just how terrible COVID was. And and how, you know, a university in the middle of Manhattan with the streets deserted, uh, you know, a university that depended upon tuition income, we were we were on the verge of of financial collapse. And you know, we had to take positions and we had to defend those positions. You know, I worry that that we are forgetting, even, you know, again, I don't want to get into the specifics, but even that George Floyd moment was a very searing time. You know, it was it was less about George Floyd as about American history and the role of slavery in American history and the degree to which the the reckoning had been you know fully fully explored and developed. And you know, we we forget just what that moment felt like when we were living through it. And I would apply the same to COVID. And so as we think about policies, you know, we need to be, there will be another something like George Floyd, there'll be another something like COVID around the corner that we can't possibly predict. And and having our policies flexible enough to allow us to deal with them, I would have thought would is a good step.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

Yeah, I think.

SPEAKER_03 41:16

Sorry, I interrupted you, Rafael.

SPEAKER_02 41:18

No, no, no, no, not at all. I was gonna say uh I I once uh heard uh the great Bacclev Habel, president of uh um Czech Republic, give a talk. Um in one of the statements it said something I will never forget objectivism is a myth. So anything that's mack of absolute statements uh or objective quote statements are destined to fail in many ways as you give that that great quote.

SPEAKER_03 41:57

I am remarkable as a scientist, you know, we like what what are you talking about? We're objective, we carry out our experiments with a with an of course we don't. We know exactly the result we want to get, and very often we don't get it.

SPEAKER_02 42:13

And we are and and science changes, and the measurement ways are objective and are not completely objective. But anyways, and that that has to be the the public and many of us have to be educated about that. We cannot believe that what we do even in science is completely objective. It gets as near as we can, but it's not.

A Lighter Farewell With Hamilton

SPEAKER_02 42:36

Well, look, uh this has been fantastic, and I can go for hours uh with you. Uh again, it's uh uh it's a pleasure to talk to you, and it's uh and really uh the the amazing coincidences on the way we think is maybe not so amazing, but it's wonderful. Uh I just wanted to end that in preparing to for this talk, I heard a parody that the students of NYU uh put together when you were arriving at NYU. And it was uh based on the music of Hamilton. Alexander Hamilton. Uh so they they wanted to work and welcome not Alexander Hamilton, but the new Hamilton, Andrew, to New York City from uh across the Atlantic. And I am an avid fan of Manuel Miranda's music. I think it's just absolutely fantastic, besides the fact that it's also from Puerto Rico. Uh I thought that was that parody was just great. I will not try to sing my appreciation for you. Uh I don't think you would like, nor the audience will enjoy that, but I will echo the enthusiasm of those students. Uh at that point in 2016, they did indeed get a great Hamilton to New York City again. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 43:57

You're very kind. Rafael, if I need to. Yes, I I will also end. Of course, I arrived in twenty sixteen and the Hamilton craze was at its height. And so all I heard as I walked the streets of New York is Hamilton is wonderful. Hamilton is the best thing to happen to New York City. So it took me about three months before I realized they were not talking about me.

SPEAKER_02 44:22

So uh that's great. That's great. Well, thank you again for playing uh being with us and speaking to the listeners of Not Alone Leaders in Conversation.

Share Feedback And Subscribe

SPEAKER_02 44:32

Uh and to the listeners out there, I urge you to let us know what you like or dislike via the platform of your choice. And most importantly, we'd like to get your comments and also to ask you to let others know about this series. Thank you. Thank you, Andrew.

SPEAKER_03 44:48

Rafael, thank you for inviting me. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_01 44:56

Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Not Alone, Leaders in Conversation. We hope this discussion today sparked new ideas and left you with plenty to think about as you continue to lead in your own institution. If you found this conversation interesting, insightful, or thought provoking, please share this episode with your colleagues, peers, and friends. And don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on your preferred platform so you can stay up to date with our latest episodes.